Hi, I'm Karan Thapar. Over the last few years, I hope you've been watching my program, The Interview on the Wire. During that period, I've interviewed doctors, politicians, businessmen, scientists, authors, and even the occasional Nobel laureate. For me, it's been exciting. I hope it's been enjoyable for you. But these, as you know, are tough times, and if this program is going to remain bold, independent, and sometimes even defiant, then I think we need your support. At the end of the day, it's a truism, but editorial independence is best defended by the viewers. So if you would like this program to remain the way it is, forthright, outspoken, and interesting, then would you consider supporting us? All you have to do is to click on the description at the bottom. But more than anything else, I hope you will continue to watch the interview. Your viewership means an awful lot to me. Hello and welcome to a special interview for The Wire. How close did India come to balkanization in 1947? A recent book suggests that the last 21 days before independence were critical. During that period, several states like Travancore, Hyderabad, Kashmir, Jodhpur, Bhopal and Indore sought ways of becoming independent or even acceding to Pakistan. Here is the book. It's called Birth of a Nation, the 21 Days that Made India. Its author, Josie Joseph, is my guest today. Josie Joseph, the subtitle of your book, Birth of a Nation, is the 21 Days that Made India. Can you start by explaining to the audience why those 21 days before independence were significant and special? One of the things that we don't fully appreciate is that the rise of India's world's largest democracy was also witnessed the world's largest partition, but it was also the biggest surrender of hereditary power ever in human history. 565 largely very powerful princely states and many of the dependees. And in that period, many of the princely states had decided or declared their independence or decided or wanting to join Pakistan. And that process has not been fully known in public because many of the records have been scattered. And the fact is that many of those princely states had declared independence and were coordinating among themselves to secure their independence. So let me ask you at this point, and it's a critical question, how close did India come to balkanization before it got its independence on the 15th of August 1947? At that point on that day, 15th August, Hyderabad and Kashmir had not acceded to either India or Pakistan. Junagadh had acceded to Pakistan, whilst Bhopal had 10 days to withdraw its consent to accede to India. And in earlier weeks, Indore, Dholpur, Junagadh and Travancore were all vacillating. So how close did India come to balkanization? Definitely far closer than our public memory, the popular history books have told us. Because if you take July 25, Travancore had declared independence, Hyderabad had declared independence, Bhopal, Indore, Junagadh, etc, have also decided to remain independent. So if you look at the last, towards the end of the first week of August, Sir C.C. Desai, who was a very important official in the States Department under Patel and Menon, he actually writes a memo detailing how to deal with these princely states, including economic sanctions on them. So India was far closer to balkanization. And mind you, many of these princely states were not some weaklings, they were princely states richest some of the richest in the world with very strong second world war returned militaries of their own i get the feeling that india came much closer to balkanization than the history books we read actually tell us am i right yes sir because one of the key factor is that the states department which was formed which began on july 5th and which was was formed in June 1947 under Nehru's pressure, began to communicate directly with the princely states and those files were part of the Indian government archives and as you know we are not the best people in organizing or keeping our records and they were lying scattered and those are the files which have significantly informed what I have written and those files reveal a story which is not largely known in public. And the interesting thing is you stumbled upon those files as you reveal your introduction almost by accident. Yes, sir. About in 2012, 13, when I was told to go slow or many of my investigative stories in the newspaper I worked for were not being published. I found a lot of time in spending in archives. And one of those old retiring frustrated officials very passingly told me, you know, hundreds of thousands of files are lying around. Nobody's bothered. Nobody's cataloging. these are very important files and that's how i began that journey but that journey did not end in national archives we went around the country and abroad looking for more evidence now those files reveal the very important and i would add very interesting story of travel core which is essentially today's canada based on those files that you read your book suggests that under the influence of the Diwan of Travancore, Sir CP Ramaswamy Iyer, Travancore was seriously considering opting for independence, but an assassination attempt on the Diwan in July, I believe it was the 25th of July, precluded that. Can you tell me that story? Yes, sir. So Travancore in June finalizes an American style of constitution, where Diwan would be the president and Travancourt is signing MOUs with international foreign countries because it's also a rich state with monocyte deposits which are now in great demand in the world and they are getting ready to increase their internal currency they have appointed a diplomat in Pakistan and they are doing everything possible to get Travancore as an independent country In June, as soon as the Indian Independence Act is approved in London within hours, the Maharaj of Travancore goes live on his radio station and declares the independence of Travancore. And Sir CP in very clear terms tells the British officials that he is ready to defend Travancore against any military intervention by India. So he is ready with all of it. And by 25th, on 25th actually, for the first time and the last time, Mountbatten is meeting the Chamber of Princes, the Narendra Mandal. Meeting is in Delhi in the afternoon. But that meeting is boycotted by these people, the Travancore, Hyderabad, Bhopal, Indore, etc., who want their independence. And few hours after that in the evening in Travancore, there is this Carnatic music recital where CP gets up to leave and he is attacked. It is from the hospital bed that CP tells the Maharaja that their lives are in danger and Maharaja has no option but to join India. And by 27th he writes to Delhi saying, to Mountbatten saying that we are joining Indian dominion. in Dominion. So if that attack on the life of CP Ramaswamy Iyer had not happened on the 25th of July, Travencourt in all likelihood would have insisted upon becoming independent. Highly possible, sir. And we should not ignore the public protest and the anger on the streets. And as you know, public protest can create any situation. But on paper, as of that day, Travencourt was on its way to become an independent Dominion of the British Empire. Now your book also reveals that V.D. Savarkar as president of the Hindu Mahasabha supported Travencore's attempts to be independent. This is an aspect of Savarkar that most people are unaware of. Yes, sir. That's I think one of the reasons maybe is that many of the historians have not been able to access Sir CP papers or documents of the States Department etc. But the fact is that in in 1947, Savarkar and the Hindu Mahasabha were very actively supporting Hindu princely states that wanted to become independent. And, Travangur, as soon as it declares independence, gets two telegrams, CP gets two telegrams. One is from Mohamad Ali Jinnah, other is from Savarkar congratulating him for the decision. And you also find Hindu Mahasabha's leaders, lawyers like Jayakar, across Baroda, Indore and other states advising them actively to secure their independence. So Savarkar and Jinnah were alike in supporting Travencore's bid for independence. And as far as Savarkar is concerned, he was very different from Congress leaders who were determined to try and keep India united and whole. Savarkar was quite happy for Travencore to become independent. Yes, sir. And this is very clearly in his telegrams. And it's not just one telegram. There is very active communication between Hindu Mahasabha leaders and Sir CP through that period, where Hindu Mahasabha is trying to set up a newspaper in Delhi and is seeking funding from Sir CP. And their justification is that if Nizam can be independent, Hindu rulers can also be independent. For Jinnah, the opposite. Let's come to Bhopal, which, as you know, is in the middle of India. under its Nawab Hamidullah Khan, not only did Bhopal want independence, but Hamidullah Khan also tried to influence other states like Indore and Jodhpur. Let me ask you, from India's point of view, how much of a problem was Hamidullah Khan? Actually, he was the lead coordinator of this entire network of princely states, and CP was a brain. So Hamidullah Khan is collecting money from Junagadh. the ruler is related to him through marriage and others for this entire operation that they are carrying out in India and in London and Hamidullah Khan is also the one he is not just limiting himself to some Muslim rulers I mean, consulate in Islam, yes but he is also the closest advisor of Holkar in Indore he is also reaching out to Maratha rulers asking them to come and be independent so he is actually the force holding together and as you know, towards the second week of uh first end of first week of august uh jodhpur also tries for independence and and hamidullah khan is the one who is facilitating uh hanman singh rato's meeting with jina so hamidullah khan was key in all the different attempts either to gain independence or to exceed to pakistan he was the key influence behind all of them yes sir and he keeps writing to Jinnah about declaring his complete loyalty to Jinnah and he also buys two mansions in Karachi and also there is Kitchensingh drama happening in his palace where he gets married to his daughter's classmate. So, Hamidullah is the key moving force and he also appoints Zafarullah Khan who later becomes I think the foreign minister of Pakistan as his advisor and sends him to London to secure their independence now it seems that in many instances vallabhai patel and vp menon were assisted by whom you describe in your book almost as spies in the states there was arava mudu ayangar in hyderabad there was venkatachar in jodhpur how critical was the role of these people in quotations if you call them spies sir it's amazing story that we have not been able to celebrate enough Aravamudu Iyengar, for example, is a loyal servant of the Nizam in Hyderabad. He's a member of his government, in fact. And in July, he starts sending cables to Delhi on a daily basis, giving real-time commentary about what Nizam is up to. And so when Nizam's delegation lands in Delhi for negotiations regarding Berar or others, they already know what Nizam wants. So the negotiations are actually completely largely scuttled by Aravamudu's courageous telegrams. The interesting fact is that when we found Aravamudu's telegrams and confirmed it with various sources and we realized that in Hyderabad nobody seems to know him, we couldn't locate his house Samruthani was. And finally when one of my colleagues Riya was able to locate a family of Aravamudu Ayyengar in a genealogy website in the US and spoke to an academic on that tree He confirmed they are the same family and then I spoke to Aravamudu grandson Jayant who quite emotionally told me that his Tata never told his family about this act that he did. So he kept it completely quiet from his family as well? Yes sir. He kept it completely to himself because I think he was risking his life because he continued to live in Hyderabad. So is Vengadacharya if he is in Jodhpur. When the Jodhpur Raja comes back after meeting Jinnah and is preparing to, thinking of declaring his independence or joining Pakistan, whatever it was, the Venkateshwar writes to Delhi to alert Patel and Menon about the plan. In Baroda, when the ruler and his wife Sita Devi are making their maneuvers, it is Mithir, a famed Calcutta lawyer who is a Diwan, who is constantly writing patel in very colorful language about the maharaja's attempts so it's these again i say it in quotation spies that actually did great service to india and helped ensure that the government in india more importantly vp menon and swallabai patel were informed of what was happening whether in baroda jodhpur or hyderabad yes sir because if you look at it the entire administrative machinery was being controlled by either the British or the princely rulers. Now, you are just setting up a small department in Delhi called States Department with five, six employees and a few clerks. Now, how do you manage these negotiations? And that is when, you know, for reasons beyond just what is understandable to ordinary human beings, these men, largely men, very courageously decide to break away from the rulers and keep Delhi informed and fight for the idea of India. In fact, in your book, you describe the elaborate way Ayyangar used to send his letters to Delhi. He would send them to an acquaintance in the city who would then pass them on and the replies would be returned to him in the same convoluted way. Yes, sir. Actually, he first telegrammed Gopalaswamy Ayyangar, who was a member of the negotiation committee and member of the Consulate Assembly. But after sending the first telegram directly to him, Arahmudu realizes that, man, I am risking my life because of the censorship and monitoring by Nizam. So then he adopts the convoluted route where he sends a telegram to his friend on Ashoka Road, who is also a bureaucrat. And the bureaucrat or his son would bring the telegram by hand to Ferocia Road where Gopalaswamy Iyengar lived. And Gopalaswamy would send it across to Menon largely. And you can see actually communications very interestingly where Menon says, thank you, Mr. Gopal, your friends' letters are very informative and useful for us. And it goes on for months. Now, this is a fascinating story. But what most people don't realize is that the problem of getting states to accede to India wasn't limited to states like Travancore, Hyderabad, Kashmir, Junagar, Bhopal, Jodhpur and Indore. Even in the northeast, there were states like Nagaland and Tripura that needed careful handling. Isn't that right? Yes, sir. And that's again one of our another forgotten, largely forgotten heroes, the Haidari, who is the governor, the first Indian governor of Assam. Sir, Akbar Haidari. That's right, sir. So he is trekking from, you know, on horsebacks and otherwise from hill to hill negotiating agreements, which he thinks is the right agreement. And he keeps sending these agreements to Delhi and he doesn't even get answers, but he doesn't stop. So when he signs a Naga Accord within like two weeks that is rejected. But he doesn't stop and when he lands in Tripura, where the palace intrigues are happening. So he's going from palace to palace and getting them to sign and it's very complex territory. I think Northeast and Katiawad were the two most complex territories that these people had to handle. And in fact, the role of Saqib al-Hadri is one that we in India are not aware of and haven't understood. Yes, sir. It is very sad that because we look at things in hindsight saying, oh, Haider, you should not have signed the Naga Accord, given that clause for Nagas to decide in the future, etc. But the fact is that that man is almost single-handedly dealing with this large, complex region without even direct communication or a telephone call with Nehru or Patel. So he gets a lot of credit in your eyes. I think so, sir. I think it's very easy for us to today sit and jet those men and say, you know, small men like me can sit and jet Haidari and Patel and Nehru and others and say what mistakes they made. But the fact is that what they carried out is what even the biggest armies in the world couldn't carry out through history. Now, Joseph, most people are aware of the critical role played by Vallabh Bhai Patel. He was not only Home Minister, he was also Minister for States. What about his secretary, VP Menon? How significant was VP Menon's contribution to the integration of states? I know that VP Menon wrote a book called The Story of the Integration of the Indian States, but how critical was his role? Sir, V.P. Menon is actually one of our most fascinating, not enough celebrated heroes. He burns down as a child his village school, becomes a miner in Kolar, sells clothes in Bombay, lands up as a typist with the British Empire and goes on to become the most powerful Indian official in the empire as a constitutional advisor to the Viceroy. This man, by 46, he is thinking about the future of the subcontinent and he starts drawing up the plan and and that is a plan actually that finally gets implemented with minor tweaks of the partition of indian pakistan etc uh the fact is that fatale and menon where the pragmatist who carries this out because as you know nehru in summer of 47 is an angry man and he is an angry and and and uh uncompromising in his belief that india will be nothing but a republic but that anger cannot negotiate, right? So, Nehru very smartly gives way to Patel and Menon and it's a very interesting team game. And then Menon leads the charge and he and Patel picks up these officials from various parts of India, brings them together and there he begins a negotiation that in Delhi is swinging between Jaswati Bhavan and South Block and around India Gate in palaces and he has got his emissary slowly going out of the field And Menon remember in August 1947 he had decided to retire because he has had a long career, a difficult career. But then he's called to action and he actually carries out the most powerful, one of the biggest operations sense that any bureaucrat has led ever in Indian history and and stays on for uh many years to come and briefly served I believe as governor of Orissa yes sir yeah and then he joined the party too later and then he retired to Bangalore what about Mountbatten your book suggests that Mountbatten played a significant role in ensuring that jodhpur didn't exceed to Pakistan he also it seems a very important role in handling Holkar. Yes, sir. So Mountbatten, as you know, a lot of books have been written about him. So I don't want to get into the larger assessment of Mountbatten or his future problems, as you know, a lot of allegations, etc. At that moment, in that few weeks and months after he lands in Delhi, one, he is enamored by Gandhi and he's quite impressed by Nehru and the Congress leadership. And he almost gives into their strategy. and he is the one who is actually doing the tough negotiations with Nawab of Bhopal, who is an old friend, Jodhpur, Indore and Nizam's delegation, etc. And he is very clearly in that period, he is not actually giving into the persuasions of the princely states and he is strongly backing what the Nehru, Patel and others, the Congresses say. So, the credit must be given to him for that period and he contributed dramatically and significantly to make India happen. So during those critical 21 days, which are the subtitle of your book, Mountbatten played a very important role in ensuring that the states acceded to India and didn't seek independence. Yes, sir. And also, you know, to his credit, when he landed in Delhi, he was advised by his advisors that, look, V.P. Menon is a smart guy, but he's pro-Congress, so keep him away. And he kept him away for many weeks. But when the crucial moment came, he gave VP Menon, along with, of course, Patel and Aru, a free hand in dealing with the princely rulers and backed them up. But did Mountbatten play a strange role in the case of Hamidullah Khan of Bhopal? He seems to have connived with him to accept a backdated accession, which would not be open till the 25th of August, thus giving Hamidullah Khan 10 days to change his mind. Was that a bit odd? I think it was a decision that had Patel's blessings. Because, not the cabinets, but I think Mountbatten had an understanding with Patel. That we will allow Hamidullah some time. And it was part of the negotiations. For Nizam, obviously the cabinet had decided on a separate action. So, I don't think it was Mountbatten playing anything dirty. it was part of a strategy with Patel's approval. That's the important point you're making, that this strategy had Vallabhbhai Patel's blessings. Yes, sir. Patel was, if you see that period, he was such a pragmatist, he was such a practical person that I don't think without him this would have happened. So Patel was involved and was actively listening to and engaging with Moonbat. So let me end, Josie Joseph, by asking you, Who in your eyes was the real hero of the integration of the states? Who gets the credit to use your subtitle of making India? Sir, there are far too many heroes. The biggest hero of all of it is Gandhi. Of course, the man who gives his followers the courage and the conviction and the support makes Nehru and Patel achieve their glory. We can't forget Nehru because Nehru is that one person while fighting for freedom. he's also committed to the idea of India being a republic. And we can't forget the pragmatic Patel and his team because they were the ones who carrying out the complex action. We also cannot forget the many little known heroes, the spies, the people around in various parts of the country. So the idea of India becoming a republic is, and we cannot of course forget what happened later with Ambedkar and constitution, et cetera. I think idea of Indian republic built on the concept of ahimsa non-violence that gandhiji drew from hindu indian civilization values is built was was a foundation on which many of these heroes built this nation and that is something that rulers of today seems to forget when they allow the police to swing their lattes on the children because this country was not built on violence we are the first nation state in the world to emerge our non-violence and this country was built on it and and i think the true heroes are the little unsung heroes the little men and women who were out there sacrificing their lives to build this great republic let me hold up your book once again there it is this is a story of many heroes some big some small some forgotten but it's a story that is riveting and i recommend this book to the audience thank you very much josie joseph for the time you've given me take care stay safe thank you sir hi i'm karan tharpar over the last few years i hope you've been watching my program the interview on the wire during that period i've interviewed doctors politicians businessmen scientists authors and even the occasional noble laureate for me it's been exciting i hope it's been enjoyable for you but these as you know our tough times and if this program is going to remain bold, independent and sometimes even defiant, then I think we need your support. At the end of the day, it's a truism, but editorial independence is best defended by the viewers. So, if you would like this program to remain the way it is, forthright, outspoken and interesting, then would you consider supporting us? All you have to do is to click on the description at the bottom. But more than anything else, I hope you will continue to watch the interview. Your viewership means an awful lot to me.
