Has this damaged PM Modi's image and standing? Has his reputation? I think in two ways. One is somebody who sees himself as a tough leader, which he does, will see this as a personal defeat and the self-confidence does tend to get weaker. The other fallout of this is is those who support him and and there are many because they see themselves in his leadership and the fact that he was made to step back to a surrender, if you will, will not be seen by them positively. And I think we can see signs of this on social media where people are of just beating and self-harm, saying he ought not to have surrendered to these people. I think is none of us, well a few of us, myself included knew that The youngsters of this country held protests following violence by the police following knowledge in the putting it. They really went for him. the interview on the wire. During that period I've interviewed doctors, politicians, businessmen, scientists, authors and even the occasional Nobel laureate. enjoyable for you. But these, as you know, are tough times and if this program is going to remain bold, independent and sometimes even defiant, then I think we need your support. At the end of the day, it's a truism, but editorial independence is best defended by the viewers. So if you would like this program to remain the way it is, interesting, then would you consider supporting me? is to click on the description at the bottom. continue to This is a defeat for the government and how significant was it? Who deserves the credit? and the CJP or Sonam Vangchuk? What impact will this have on PM Modi's image and confidence and on Indian politics and next year's state elections? Finally, is this a potential and how can we ensure history actually turns? My guest is the well-known and highly regarded journalist, author, and chairman of Amnesty. Akar Patel. Akar Patel, on Saturday, the Modi government gave in to all three of the demands of the Cockroach Janta Party. As you look at it, was this a defeat for the government? And if the answer is yes, how significant a defeat is it? Yes, and I think very significant. We have seen the government buckle under protest before, most notably when the farmers came to Delhi and when the Muslim women led a protest against the National Register of Citizens, ensured that this law did not come to us. However, I think this is the first time that the government has... of accountability that it has accepted that when it does something wrong which it did in the instance of the neat paper leak it must be held accountable in this fashion that it ought to let somebody go from the cabin and that hurt which it feels will lead to some element of introspection and So I think the accepting of this principle is new here, I would say. Would you agree that when the farmers protest forced the government to take back the farm bill four or five years ago, There was no accountability at the time. draw of the bill. This is the first time a minister has been forced to resign. the right way of looking at it that the the Prime Minister did come before the farmers and said sorry for them but there was no principle in the acceptance of a minister leaving as is the case here. How beyond the government has this damaged Prime Minister Modi? Has his reputation taken a hit? It has, and I think in two ways. One is somebody who sees himself as a person who is not a person. We'll see this as a personal defeat and the self-confidence does tend to get weakened when this happens. The other fallout of this is those who support him and... will feel the hurt as well because they see themselves in his leadership and the fact that he was made to step back to surrender, if you will, will not be seen by them positively. And I think we can see signs of this on social media where people are going through a lot of chest beating and self-harm. to have surrendered to these people. The other thing, the second aspect, I think, is none of us, well, a few of us, myself included, knew that-- the Prime Minister in such withering contempt. The language that was used against him. these protests following violence by the police following knowledge in these youngsters that many of these social media posts will lead to cases again Despite that, they came out and spoke of him in language which was not heard before. And I think... is a weak way of actually putting it. They really went for him and I think that will weaken him as well in the sense that he has enjoyed a very long period where it is thought that his leadership is something that has a national consensus of sorts behind it. I think this specific is a weaker man today and his confidence has taken a battering. Absolutely and that is one reason why he refused to do what he was forced to do till the end. If he really meant all the things that he now says about reform in education. done two months ago. He chose not to because he knew and he knows and all of us know that when you are compelled to do this as a strong man, as a self-discipline. and it does actually weaken you. When you look at this from the point of view of the protesting students, who gets the credit for forcing Dharmendra Pradhan's resignation? Abhijit Dipke, its founder, who insisted upon this, or Sonam Vangchuk, whose fast gave the movement great publicity. but who weakened his demand for Pradhan's resignation towards the end. Who would you give the credit to? The sequence is revealing. I think that it is the CJP and Dipke which began this. When the exam was cancelled and they formed a party, Wang Chuk joined it. But it is fair also to say that till the day that Wang Chuk was kidnapped by the government and taken to hospital, there was not as much momentum behind the protest as there was from that day forward. The government had hoped that this would wither on the vine. The fact that it did not at that moment, at that point in time, is to the credit of one. But after that, what happened is that there is a level of spontaneity that came into it. And there's a quality. Pan-national protests that in cities where there was limited or no of the CJP there was still a mobilization and I think it was the fear that this group would not demobilize quickly that was the reason that the government surrendered and asked the minister to resign. It sounds to me as if you are giving primary credit to the CJP. You need a catalyst when you have a protest movement you need a center of gravity. You need somebody to start something and I think it had its moments the first big one They got a lot of traction on social media. But if we notice the path after that, there is a dip in terms of the ability to mobilize on, uh, on the ground, which did come later. But the, the sort of, it's hard to look back into history and think of a protest that was as successful. as quickly. We can think of Gandhi in Champaran in 1917, 45 days or so. I think the same. committee or something like that. To be able to mobilize this quickly in a set of people who had not been mobilized before, if we notice the leadership of this youth protest, it's fairly disaggregated. One reason why you and I are discussing who ought to... front of taking a credit for it is that we are ourselves not very clear about whether or not there is a particular individual. I think the CJP began it, Wang Chuk took it forward, but I think the youth really came into their own. They stormed the citadel and they went back and quickly as they came i think the the government did not like Has this Gen Z protest, which on Friday seemed to spread through the country, shown India how to challenge the tough authoritarian Modi government? And if it has, what is the lessons it's taught the opposition? The hardest part of civil society work is physical mobilization, what is called offline mobilization, getting a crowd to stand up for it. And every time this has happened in this country, whether the government has held 282 seats or 303 seats or 240 seats as it does now, it has been pushed back. So it happened with the NRC, it happened with the...
